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 Post subject: Protoss, Silkworm and Penetrator round
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 9:47 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:09 am
Posts: 671
Had a chat with Hex the other day about the problem of Silkworm and Protoss. The issue being that Carrier can spam silks to remove hard points from Protoss deck and Protoss have no defence (or very little) to stop this. Also if gauss's penetrator round is fixed, I think their will be a similar problem.

I had a few thoughts on this since:

The problem is with Protoss ships not carrier or gauss (agree?) so Protoss's are what need to be changed.

Idea 1: I was thinking something along the lines of a Protoss version of the shield router would be a good start, maybe granting 2-3 selected hard points immunity to single attacks over X amount of damage or very taking for than Y about of damage from a single attack?

Question: does the other Protoss engine upgrade (the shield thingy) block silkworm? I assume it does since it says something like "will not take damage from attacks over 500 damage".

Idea 2: Manual point defence: an hard point that grant use of a missile barrage like ability that kills all guided projectiles (including silkworms) in a given area, it would allow tactical blocking of such attacks. I think this might be overpowered vs other attack though... thoughts?



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 Post subject: Re: Protoss, Silkworm and Penetrator round
PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:21 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:40 am
Posts: 104
I too had this discussion with hex and other players few months ago. Im not sure if the silkworm's problem is only adressed to toss ships. Yes, terran's ships have more possibilities to "count" it (heals abilities on some ship + repair bay) but its still not pretty usefull against a good carrier. The silkworm, with the possibility to be fired 2 times in a row + the little cd on the ability allow a good carrier to rekill your unit as soon as you will have rebuilt it. As def, for instance, it takes me 45secs to rebuild my engine, this when my E is at max lvl! If i have a repair bay (full upgraded) on my build, it would takes me 22secs instead of 45secs, which is still an eternity when theres a carrier whos focusing on it.

I'm talking particularly about the engine because for me, its the fundamental problem with the silkworm. Because most ships without engine are dead or at least, are forced to retreat to not be killed by ennemies with engine, the ennemies take the advantage to control the min's line. At this point, its like the discussion we had about the BS, is the problem is the silkworm or the min's control --> starving? If min's control wasnt so important, would i care to have to retreat?

However, in the actual form of ws, its kinda crucial in a game to have to stay on the min's line. A carrier can pretty fastly, with only few upgrades, prevent you to do this by killing your engine and pushing you out of min's line with the support of his allies. So, what about :
- if we just not allow silkworm to hit engine at all? or
- if we increase the cd on silkworm? or
- if the dmg done by silkworm is dimished when it hit engine? or
- if the silkworm can only be used or by the ship, or by the fighters?
(Dont kill me to suggest that carrier's players, its just a discussion. ;))

Also, im not sure to see the problem with gauss penetrator. You are talking about the R right? The R that take for ever to fire? Since toss have the blink to move away like terrans have the boost, i dont really see a problem to count that gauss ability. Or i misunderstand you?


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 Post subject: Re: Protoss, Silkworm and Penetrator round
PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 5:11 am 

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:58 am
Posts: 139
The silkworm on the fighters is ok, but yes, on carrier, you just can literally kill a ship only using silkworm and few reactors, the cooldown is way to short for it's damage output.
But yes, carrier is the bane of engines, if there is one, you are pretty much fucked unless you know how to defend/counter it or the carrier is bad.

For nerf, i say cooldown, you can always shield the engines, that should be enough (not on protoss).

Speaking of protoss, there is nothing else a carrier can kill so fast without touching the ship at all, the fact that protoss has like tiny hp on hardpoints makes it pretty easy to bombard it down.



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 Post subject: Re: Protoss, Silkworm and Penetrator round
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 3:34 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:40 am
Posts: 104
LDani2001 wrote:
[..] you can always shield the engines, that should be enough (not on protoss).

Speaking of protoss, there is nothing else a carrier can kill so fast without touching the ship at all, the fact that protoss has like tiny hp on hardpoints makes it pretty easy to bombard it down.

Silkworm bypass shield, so the router doesnt really change a lot of things in regards of the silkworm's problem. Instead of 2 silkworms, a carrier would need 3 silkworms to kill an engine with a router on it.

About my def's example, i did a number's mistake. I said that it would takes me 22secs to rebuild my engine if my E was full upgraded and i had a repair bay (full upgraded too). Its worst, it would take me in fact 27 secs. :o Also, if my repair bay was powerdroned (with the mobile's Q full upgraded), then it would takes me 17 secs to repair my engine... Its better but still not really usefull when you think that a carrier can spam 3 silks in less than 5 secs.

Even if i think that the problem is applied to all ships, im agree that's worst for toss' ships. One suggestion i gave was to dimish the dmg done by silkworm when it hit engine. We could also apply that idea on toss units, at least on 3x3 units. Actually, a carrier can kill a 3x3 unit in 1 hit, so what about if we would make it equal to terrans units, so it would need 2 silk to destroy a 3x3 toss unit?


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 Post subject: Re: Protoss, Silkworm and Penetrator round
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 9:31 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:28 am
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Location: Russian Federation
Amount of shields provided from router was intetionally choosed to 1500, in order carrier still can 2-shot enemy engines. However if engine covered with router you can do it only with silkworm level 5 and not less. Also Engine Repair skill can allow you "soak" damage from silkworms, and cover another hardpoints with router rather engine module.
Dont forger also even if you repair engine covered with router shield before, it will not also protected until you will not return in docks.

About protoss... you not consider add something reducing incoming damage from silkworm, or you want just nerf it? It will affect more than just protoss, but also terran. You can also change Hardened Shields ability to affect also hardpoints. Then good timing can reduce damage from 3600 to 1000 if missile maxed. Currently it affects only Capital ship shields.
But then Protoss operator will need trade Blink for Hardened Shields, not everyone are ready for.



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 Post subject: Re: Protoss, Silkworm and Penetrator round
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 11:38 am 

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:09 am
Posts: 671
Protoss seem to me underpowered with lack of counters to shield penetrating abilities, I think this needs dealing with; whether or not silk gets nerfed.

Form wrote:
About protoss... you not consider add something reducing incoming damage from silkworm, or you want just nerf it? It will affect more than just protoss, but also terran. You can also change Hardened Shields ability to affect also hardpoints. Then good timing can reduce damage from 3600 to 1000 if missile maxed. Currently it affects only Capital ship shields.
But then Protoss operator will need trade Blink for Hardened Shields, not everyone are ready for.

I was thinking that hardened shields needs buffing, least to get people using it. Maybe reduce the cool down along with what form suggest? This give toss something to counter silks and penetrator.

Charlie you think that Silk is overpowered? I am less convinced by this, but I don't see good carriers anymore so cannot judge well.

Quote:
1 - if we just not allow silkworm to hit engine at all? or
2 - if we increase the cd on silkworm? or
3 - if the dmg done by silkworm is dimished when it hit engine? or
4 - if the silkworm can only be used or by the ship, or by the fighters?

1- I am not sure about this
2 - If its agreed silk needs a nerf, I like this one
3 - same as 1
4- same as 2

On Gauss's penetrator (R) hex and me agreed its useless, never hits anyone good. However a buff (mainly reducing charge up before firing) would I think be very bad for toss, so they need something to counter before such a buff to gauss's R. On a side note to this, I think guass is overall fairly balanced now, so maybe a buff to R should be accompanied by a nerf to the EMP rounds (they currently deal x4 damage to shields I think, which when taking into account the already 1/2 damage they do to standard hardppints results in x2 times damage over the standard rounds) so they deal only 2x damage to shields (so the same as the standard ammo). Thoughts?



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 Post subject: Re: Protoss, Silkworm and Penetrator round
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 12:10 pm 

Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:40 am
Posts: 104
Yes router help, but i still feel the silkworm can paralyse too much a whole ennemies' team. Dont forget that often, the allies of the carrier will feed him and hell get xp super fast (so abilities).

Quote:
Dont forger also even if you repair engine covered with router shield before, it will not also protected until you will not return in docks
About this, should we fix the router to let units rebuilt covered by the router again (without to have to return in docks)?

Is silk overpowered? I still dont know, for a toss player, i would tend to say yes, for terran, it seems close. However, the idea to have to solve the silk's problem by forcing players to not pick boost engine or blink annoy me. I rather like the idea to fix the silk itself if theres a problem. But that just my opinion. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Protoss, Silkworm and Penetrator round
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 12:15 pm 

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:09 am
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Any thoughts on toss counters to silk and penetrator?



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 Post subject: Re: Protoss, Silkworm and Penetrator round
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 2:06 pm 

Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 7:58 am
Posts: 139
Charlie wrote:
However, the idea to have to solve the silk's problem by forcing players to not pick boost engine or blink annoy me


As someone who prefers mobility over defense, i totally agree, having no boost is a huge negative in survival



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 Post subject: Re: Protoss, Silkworm and Penetrator round
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 5:18 pm 

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:28 am
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Location: Russian Federation
Charlie wrote:
Yes router help, but i still feel the silkworm can paralyse too much a whole ennemies' team. Dont forget that often, the allies of the carrier will feed him and hell get xp super fast (so abilities).

Quote:
Dont forger also even if you repair engine covered with router shield before, it will not also protected until you will not return in docks
Quote:
About this, should we fix the router to let units rebuilt covered by the router again (without to have to return in docks)?


It was also intended. I dislike your suggestion at all, then Repair Engine ability will allow terran users repair not 2000 but 3500 hp every 40 secs, which is just ridicuolus, beside other things we dont know it will make silkworm totally useless. Its will be really slow TvT battles(always what you are scared).

As I said before sniping engines already harder for carrier. I wouldn't nerft Silkworm instead make(rework) life for carrier more easier if I was at your place. Probably diverse his ways to evolve by nerfing his current stats and instead adding upgrades or another feautures which fighters-carrier nor gun-carrier. So far Carrier will can choose from start which playstile it prefer. At start it will be slightly weaker, but then he can swarm with more powerful air or with boosted damage from skills or guns(depend on operator choice)



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Is this the pain to play the game
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I've tried to stand this hopeless fight
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